more on "Lazarus Rising"

[ivyfic]

After watching "Lazarus Rising," I went back and rewatched a couple of episodes I think really informed it, particularly "Houses of the Holy" and "Mystery Spot."

In "Houses of the Holy," we see that Dean is the skeptic and Sam has faith. But as Sam talks about it at the end, he has faith because he needs to believe there is something that can save him. Of course, given the events in the rest of the season, it's clear that nothing does—or at least, no greater power. This episode is, I think, the beginning of Sam losing his faith, and the beginning of Dean gaining his. I'd bet that by the time "Lazarus Rising" rolls around, Sam has lost his faith entirely.

I had surprisingly forgot just how dark Sam got in "Mystery Spot." At the end, he was completely willing to murder a random stranger on the off chance that it might make a ritual work to call the Trickster. He has no guaruntee at all that the Trickster would bring Dean back. But he's willing to kill someone just for the slim hope that he might. I don't think the show would ever go there, but I would totally believe that somewhere in the four months Dean was dead after the season finale, Sam did murder someone as part of a ritual he hoped would bring his brother back.

There's a tendency for a show, and a fandom, to treat a stand alone episode as less important to a character than a mythology episode. But in the case of "Mystery Spot," we know that Sam spent at least a hundred Tuesdays stuck in the loop—I'd guess more like two hundred. And then he spent six months without Dean. Compared to that, it was only a few months later Dean was dragged to Hell, then four months since his death. He's spent far less time since the loop than he did in it. And since he already spent six months with Dean dead, when Dean died again, Sam was already at that place of desperation. The show is unlikely to reference that episode, but this has to feel completely surreal to Sam. I think the time loop had a profound effect on him that we haven't even begun to deal with.

What that episode also showed is that though both Sam and Dean would sell their souls to save their brother, Sam is willing to go much farther than that. For Dean, I think there's still a line. He'd sacrifice himself, but he wouldn't take an innocent life. Sam would. Sam seems to have no problem with doing so. I don't think Dean gets that at all—I just don't think he can see how dangerous Sam can be. I'm hoping this season he'll find out.

Other random thoughts:
- As I watched the scene between Dean and Bobby, I was glad I already posted Balance of Days, since I wrote a scene a whole lot like that.
- Did anyone else notice that most of the recap, at least the first part of it, was all the different ways Sam and Dean have killed women on the show? And then there's the gratuitous slapping of the female demon and the blinding of the female psychic. Wow, Supernatural, make my point for me.
- The fact that Bobby is all messed up about this speaks volumes, I think. Also, if they ever kill Bobby on this show, I will hate Eric Kripke FOREVER.

I have now rewatched the final scene of "Lazarus Rising" way too many times. Bring on the fic!

Comments

[embroiderama]

I think you're absolutely right about the relationship between Mystery Spot and Lazarus Rising for Sam. I love that they showed us Sam on his own, what he became, since they didn't show that to us in "reality."

And I think Bobby's relatively safe, since he's named after a producer. LOL But I think if they ever needed a way to rip out our hearts without killing a Winchester, that's the way they'd do it.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I think we didn't get a lot of Sam this ep because it was very much Dean focused. I think we're going to see a lot more of how Sam's changed in future episodes.

What struck me about rewatching "Mystery Spot" was that Dean was dead for longer in that episode. Which is kind of interesting.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Also, with this season going towards bro v bro, they're going to need Bobby as an outsider for Dean to talk to about the changes in Sam and his new mission. I don't see Dean telling Sam all about Castiel, but I do see him telling Bobby. But that could go either way for Bobby--either by making him too essential to eliminate, or making it absolutely necessary to eliminate him so that Dean does not have outside allies.

[gryphonrose.livejournal.com]

I still think Sam may have real faith--it's been tested plenty of times but I think he does genuinely believe in a higher power, and in one for good. Dean doesn't. Which makes this even more interesting because Dean will constantly question what Castiel tells him, something no true believer would do.

Yeah, Sam can get very dark. And yes, he's still seriously messed up from everything. I agree we're going to see a lot more of that as the season goes on.

I would hate it if they killed Bobby but I also don't want him in every episode. He works better as someone they turn to every once in a while and vice-versa. Make him a regular and he loses his edge. (Can we say Gunn on Angel? I knew we could.)

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I think Sam believes any more. He certainly seems unwilling to accept that God has any sort of plan, with the way he's been dealing with demons and such. I don't believe he's fighting demons to help people anymore. I think he's doing it because on some level he enjoys it.

For Dean--"Houses of the Holy" does end with him saying he thinks he saw God's will. I'd be inclined to think he views God in the same way my grandfather does--there is a god, but he's a sadist. I was also trying to make this point to dotfic, but I think that Dean has shown himself to be much more willing to put his trust entirely in someone else. He blindly followed his father, even when his father was just a voice on the phone. I think that his problem with Castiel is that he won't just take a supernatural being's word that they're good. But if he did ever get to that point, I think it would be a powerful draw for him to have someone else give him his mission. People have made a lot of the fact that no one ever asks Dean what he wants. I think what Dean ultimately wants is for someone else to give him a purpose.

Hmm...I seem to have muddled this...

[gryphonrose.livejournal.com]

Well yes, as I said on your other post, I think, Dean does believe there are greater powers, he just doesn't believe they're forces of good. That's why he doesn't trust Castiel. Why should he? I think Sam does believe, deep down, that things work out in the end--which might be why he's willing to risk more than Dean because he thinks ultimately such sacrifices must be rewarded. It will be interesting to see how their faiths or lacks thereof play out and change.

But I do agree that Dean would love to hand control over to someone else.

[i-speak-tongue.livejournal.com]

But if he did ever get to that point, I think it would be a powerful draw for him to have someone else give him his mission. People have made a lot of the fact that no one ever asks Dean what he wants. I think what Dean ultimately wants is for someone else to give him a purpose.


Yes yes and YES.

[jya-bd-cp-ttgb.livejournal.com]

Because this discussion is going all metaphysical and faithy, I've got to point out this interesting little question : Did Kripke indicate Dean was needed to do God's work way back in Season One, with the episode Faith?


See, Roy the preacher man, didn't know his wife had caught and bound that Reaper, and that the Reaper was trading a life for a life. So if you go on the assumption that Roy was a true believer, and that maybe God took double advantage of the situation - save Dean, stop the evil - then God told Roy that Dean had more work to do.

I haven't had a chance to watch Faith, HotH, Mystery Spot and Lazarus back to back, but I don't think Faith should be discounted when one contemplated God's plan for Dean.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

You are right. I've seen that idea in a couple of fic--that God worked through Roy to choose Dean. Of course, then you get into the very problematic area of a God who definitely values some lives over others...

(As a caveat, in all of my discussions of faith and religion here, I'm talking about the fictionalized version of Christianity being used as the mythology of the show, not my actual beliefs about God. So you know.)

[jya-bd-cp-ttgb.livejournal.com]

Mmmm...unless you go with the idea that Marshall? was born solely to die for Dean, like Jesus died for everyone.
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Okay, while I won't delete it, I am going to shut up now before my bunnies go ballastic. Fictional christianity is so much fun to play with even before you add Dean, Sam and Castiel to the mix.

Likewise, I'm not discussing RL Christians, just the way things are interpreted through the filter of Supernatural. Just like I don't judge Wiccans based on Margeret Hamilton in Oz, or Cher in Witches of Eastwick.