Excuse me, is my eye hurting your elbow?

[ivyfic]

I was shoved and yelled at this morning for wearing my backpack on the subway, so I've decided to take advantage of my polling capabilities.

The New York etiquette poll
In two parts, cause it's too damn long. I'm sure if I waited to post, it would keep getting longer and longer.

[Poll #1062690]

[Poll #1062691]

ETA: Oh, curse lj for making polls uneditable. Excuse the typos. Also, what the hell, lj? Why are all my fonts suddenly displaying as ginormous?

Comments

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

It's not rude to have a backpack, but if the train is crowded, the backpack should be taken off and put down (or held) so it's not whacking other people in the back or head.

Most of the other stuff is rude when other people do it, but perfectly justifiable when I or my friends do it. Well, the door-holding, anyway.

[gryphonrose.livejournal.com]

I agree about the backpack--fine to have it, rude not to remove it from your back when it's crowded. I feel the same about bikes, actually--it's fine to have it on a noncrowded subway, but not during rush hour. And strollers, which you're not supposed to have open during rush hour but people do it constantly anyway.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I'll put my bag on the seat next to me on an uncrowded bus or train, but as soon as it starts to fill up, I'll move it into my lap, to leave a seat open. It's petty, but when I see someone who doesn't move their bag off a seat on a crowded bus or train, I will always choose that seat, and ask them to move it.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I do that too. It's crazy cause everybody knows that by putting a bag on a seat and avoiding eye contact, you're hoping no one will sit there cause everyone does it. So it's not much of a tactic.

I've also read papers saying that if given the choice, both men and women will choose to sit next to a woman instead of a man on a crowded train if given the choice. So we are doomed to be squished.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

To defend my backpack wearing, the train was only moderately crowded. If the guy had moved one strap to the right, where there was plenty of space, the backpack would not have been an issue. I would have pointed this out to him but he was 6'5'' and had started this whole confrontation by using both hands to shove me. He also sat down at the next stop and crossed his long-ass legs so he was blocking the aisle. I feel full of righteous indignation.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's still no reason for shoving. I mean, I will ... not worry too much about where my elbows land if someone is crowding me on a less crowded train, and I will shoulder people out of the way, but I would never actually shove someone. And if there is space and he got all up in your face anyway, then it's his fault.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_abulafia/]

In a contest between a person who wears a backpack and a person who deliberately shoves a fellow passenger out of the way to make some kind of unnecessary point about etiquette, I think the rudeness points have got to go to the physical aggressor, who, in addition to being a physical aggressor, is both self-righteous and weirdly hypocritical about it.

[miss-pryss.livejournal.com]

This quiz was MADE FOR ME. I think about these questions ALL THE TIME. I have OFFICIAL POLICIES.

Also, I feel I must defend one of my answers, if such a thing is possible. I checked "shove them" on the final question, and I want to make it clear that I do not shove anyone. HOWEVER. If someone is doing something like talking to a friend and blocking the subway station entrance, or standing in the door of the subway when people are exiting and entering, or wearing a protruding backpack on a crowded train and it is digging into me, I will not try very hard to get out of their way, or to sidle on by without making physical contact. I will take as much room as I need (as much room as I would have were they not disobeying the unspoken rules of subway etiquette) and if that means that I brush by them or even sort of push by them, or exert some returning pressure on their backpack... well, so be it.

My justification for this (besides the fact that it gives me an outlet for my occasional commuter rage) is that if people have a physical sense of how in the way they are, they might learn to get out of the way.

ALSO: I will ON OCCASION, when I am feeling forthright and when my victim doesn't look too scary, politely tell people what it is they are doing wrong. But mostly I don't bother with this. I let my elbows do the talking.

[gryphonrose.livejournal.com]

I consider "shove them" to be very different from "shoulder them aside," which I often do to people blocking the doors. Shoving means you're not moving otherwise, whereas shouldering is just not worrying about the fact that they're in your way. :)

[miss-pryss.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly! But "shoving" was the best analog for "shouldering" in the list. :)

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Yes, I have shouldered people aside before. I once bodychecked a woman who was standing directly in front of closing doors on a subway train, next to a pillar, and ignored me saying "excuse me" twice. I made the train, but she swore a lot.

I have also pointed stuck my thumbnail into someone who was leaning their entire arm on the pole. (By this I mean, I stuck my thumbnail out so the next time they hogged the pole, they got it in their arm.)

As for my morning experience? It was a two-handed shove.

And my parents wonder why I listen to Nine Inch Nails on my way to work.

[miss-pryss.livejournal.com]

That guy sounds like a scary, scary douche bag.

Also, I love that thumb trick -- I'm going to try that next time!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_abulafia/]

I can't answer a lot of those, because I would say, in most cases, that it depends on the way in which the behavior is being conducted. The key to not being rude, as far as I'm concerned, is really just remaining attentive to the needs of people around you and acting accordingly. Like, I'd say it's perfectly fine to check your iPod, but only if you can do it without stopping short in the middle of the sidewalk or cluelessly veering off in unpredictable directions: maintain your pace, walk in a straight line, and glance up from time to time so that you can react to any unforeseeable developments. If you're not actually hampering my progress along the sidewalk in a way that you can easily adjust, then whatever else you might be doing is not of consequence to me, so it's none of my business. Similarly: Bring your backpack onto the subway, but make sure you know where it is, and adjust as necessary to accommodate the situation as it develops -- I mean, for example, if you find you can't wear it in the conventional manner without forcing it into someone's face, the appropriate action might be to take it off and hold it in front of you. Listen to your iPod on an elevator, by all means, but check the volume of the headphones: If no one else can hear your music, then your listening behavior is none of their concern, but if they can, then they might have legitimate grounds for complaint.

That said, my biggest big-city annoyance is people who walk slowly in the middle of a narrow sidewalk, especially when they bring friends along to walk slowly in the middle of the narrow sidewalk with them in a wingman formation. Oh my god, I sometimes find myself half-fantasizing about gunning them down and walking over their corpses: If their gait is anything to judge by, they are practically dead already anyway! I mean, these people are totally oblivious to the reality of people existing all around them, and yet their behavior forces you to be the asshole, because you're either the weird trailing person or the speed queen who awkwardly cuts people off. (As a driver, I don't mind slow traffic, I think because, whereas people have natural strides and it's an effort to deviate from them, driving slowly and driving quickly are equally possible.)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_abulafia/]

The gunning-people-down remark was meant to be a joke, but now I realize that it just sounds crazy and really disproportionately hostile! Wow.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

No worries. I work near an Institute for the Blind and though I feel terribly guilty about it, I still get really annoyed at clumps of blind people walking slowly down the sidewalk.

[ecmyers.livejournal.com]

I just remembered a more specific annoyance: people, mostly men, who spread their legs wide so they take up two seats. Not called for, never attractive.

I was on a train once where a guy was sitting with a huge backpack still on and every time he turned to talk to his companion to his right, he whacked the girl on his left with it. She didn't say anything and I finally asked him to take his bag off because it was too painful to watch.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I have a new pet peeve for the subway. This weekend, I was sitting and a guy with a shopping bag around his wrist grabbed onto one of the straps. This meant the shopping kept swinging into my face. This goes for people with dagged or bellbottom sleeves as well.

[tirtzah.livejournal.com]

I'd have to qualify some of these though. I mean I wouldn't dodge around an elderly or disabled person if it was going to jostle them in any way, but if there was a clear path around them, sure. Walking in crowded subways/streets/etc is not unlike driving on a highway, sometimes you need to pass or end up with a long line of lagging cars.

Also I would probably only tell someone they were being rude if it was a) a real problem and b) the person looked sane and unaware they were causing a problem. But otherwise, I would keep silent. Or bitch to a friend later.

I agree that if you have a backpack and it's crowded it's best if you take it off and put it between your feet, but people expecting you not to carry something you might need it just silly.

There's a lot that are conditional. I would try to be considerate, but sometimes you really need to talk to someone and you happen to be in an elevator. Or you've mastered the art of texting/reading/etc while walking in a crowded place.

[moonlightalice.livejournal.com]

Biggest peeve:

JERKS WHO PUT THEIR GODDAMN WET UMBRELLAS ON THE SEAT NEXT TO THEM!

Not only does this mean you can't sit there because they're taking two seats, but no one can sit there FOR HOURS because someone's DIRTY WET UMBRELLA has ruined it. UGH

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with whoever said it above--the problem is not that individual acts are obnoxious and rude, it's the specific instances in which people do things that cause them to be other people's problems.

My real pet peeve was going to be "people who feel the need to fuck with me while i'm walking and reading" but it didn't fit. Because people who CAN do that sort of thing and not walk into you shouldn't be the ones you choose to harass for such behavior. Gah.